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Topic: intentions/marriage
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 laronssis
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Umm Abdul-Haleem unspecified
(sharjah UAE)
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Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Dec 2006
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As salaamu alaikum,
Some sisters have the understanding that when you are interested in knowing about a brother for marriage that this is placing intentions on them and no one else can have interest in you.
Others think that you find someone you want to know more about and you sit down with this person and your wakil. If the two of you want to marry, you then place intentions on each other and that is when other brothers can not place intentions on you.
Which is the correct view?
wa as salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu
Al-Fudayl ibn Iyyad (Rahimahullaah) said: "Man's fear of Allaah is equal to his Knowledge of Him and his renunciation of worldly pleasures is equal to his desire in the Hereafter."
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| Soheil.Keynejad
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unspecified Soheil ibn Majid al-Farisee
(Stockholm, Sweden)
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Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 2005
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alaykas salaam wa rahmatullaah
the second view is correct
Abdur Rahman bin Shumasah reported that he heard Uqbah bin Amir (radiyallaahu anhu) saying on the pulpit that the Messenger of Allaah (sallaahu wa alehi wa sallaam) said:" The believer is the brother of a believer so it is not lawful for a believer to outbid his brother, nor to propose a woman who is proposed by his brother unless the latter gives her up"
Sahih Muslim Mukhtasar volume 1 page 413 hadith nr 800
والسلام عليكم و رحمةالله و بركاته
سهيل بن مجيد
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| Lougain
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Abu Yuusha' Lougain ibn Bogdan
(London, UK)
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Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Apr 2003
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As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaah
I'm surprised, dearest brother Soheil, that you do not have at least a scholars name to go with the approval of that opinion.
Is it not the case that this is only if the two brothers/sisters are aware of each other (and thus try to outbid the other)? If a sister is approached by two brothers that do not know about each others interest/approaches towards the sister, is the sister then not allowed to find out more about them both? Must she make a niyah on which of the two she should continue talking to?
What about the hadeeth in Sahih Muslim which states:
"Fatima bint Qais reported that Abu 'Amr b. Hafs divorced her absolutely when he was away from home, and he sent his agent to her with some barley. She was displeased with him and when he said: I swear by Allah that you have no claim on us. she went to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and mentioned that to him. He said: There is no maintenance due to you from him, and he commanded her to spend the 'Idda in the house of Umm Sharik, but then said: That is a woman whom my companions visit. So better spend this period in the house of Ibn Umm Maktum, for he is a blind man and yon can put off your garments. And when the 'Idda is over, inform me. She said: When my period of 'Idda was over, I mentioned to him that Mu'awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu'awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected to him, but he again said: Marry Usama; so I married him. Allah blessed there in and I was envied (by others)."
Book 009, Number 3512
Shall I take it that what takes place in this hadeeth came before the occurrence of the previous hadeeth and is thus abrogated?
Or is it that the two sahabas did not know of each other's proposals and were thus not trying to outbid eachother which made it ok for the sahabiyyah to investigate both of them as opposed to making a niyah for one of them? What about the statement of Rasoolullaah, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, which brought yet another sahabi into the situation and the fact that he, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, did not object to what was going on?
I believe that this needs to be answered by somebody that has studied or has access to the shuyukh for a proper explanation of what such a situation entails.
If regular guys like us just grab ahadeeth from the books and say this opinion is correct or that opinion is correct (from our selves) then we will get into trouble..
Brothers/sisters out there that are able to at least mention a scholars name with the mentioning of which opinion is correct, please clarify which understanding is the correct one and explain how we can reach an agreement between the two hadeeths.
Barakallaahu feekum
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaah
Lougain
This message was edited by Lougain on 1-26-07 @ 5:27 PM
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| Soheil.Keynejad
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unspecified Soheil ibn Majid al-Farisee
(Stockholm, Sweden)
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Member
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Joined: Feb 2005
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salaam alaykum wa rahmatullaah
jazaakAllaahu khair for ur adivce and correcting me barakAllaahu feek.
wassalaam wa alaykum
والسلام عليكم و رحمةالله و بركاته
سهيل بن مجيد
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| Moosaa
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Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson
(Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
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wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh
Bismillaah...
Some benefits of the hadeeth that relate to this question:
[1] The Shaafi'ee and Hanbalee scholars have stated: The prohibition applies when a positive response (ijaabah) to the proposal has been given.
[2] If there is no positive or negative response, however the family is considering the proposal (only a ta'reedh), then the four imaams held the position that a second proposal from another party is not permissible. Ash-Shaafi'ee in one narration held that it was allowed to propose in this case, due to Mu'aawiyah and Aboo Jahm's proposals to Faatimah, that the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) was informed about and did not speak against. (and the hadeeth does indicate that she was considering both proposals) An-Nawawee mentioned that it could be said here that the second of the two did not know of the first's proposal. (so the decisiveness of this proof is debatable)
[3] ash-Shaafi'ee in one narration explicitly stated that this prohibition is when the woman (or her walee) is genuinely interested and expresses this interest in the first's proposal.
[4] Conditions for the prohibition of the second proposal:
- that the second man has knowledge of the first man's proposal (comment: it seems that it would still be prohibited here, however the second man would be excused from any blame or sin, and Allaah knows best)
- that the first man has not openly allowed others to propose (given up this right)
- that the first man has not given up on his proposal (due to one narration in saheeh muslim (1414): "until he abandons it" (the proposal, or "her": the woman)
- that the first proposal was a permissible one according to the sharee'ah (there is nothing preventing them from marrying, i.e. the man was not proposing to a woman he has divorced three times and she has not remarried since, or it is not a Christian man proposing to a muslim woman, for example)
- that the woman has not told her walee to marry her to whomever he pleases (in this case, multiple proposals are invited) (ash-Shaafi'ee in "al-Umm")
- Some scholars said that a muslim may propose after a non-muslim has proposed (to a christian women for example), since the hadeeth is "a muslim is the brother of another muslim", however the majority held that this is not specific to muslims
[5] Then, there is a discussion about the validity of such a contract when the second man marries a women who another man previously proposed to. (If such a marriage does occur and a debate arises about it - then it is taken to the Islaamic courts or to a judge for a decision)
These points were summarized from "Tarh at-Tathreeb" of Aboo Zur'ah al-'Iraaqee (may Allaah have Mercy on him and his father) (6/90-94), except for what is in parenthesis, which is from me to add clarity.
I hope it helps to clarify some of the issues surrounding this hadeeth.
And Allaah knows best.
Moosaa ibn John Richardson
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سبحانك اللهم وبحمدك
أشهد أن لا إله إلا أنت
أستغفرك وأتوب إليك
This message was edited by Moosaa on 1-28-07 @ 11:10 PM
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| Lougain
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Abu Yuusha' Lougain ibn Bogdan
(London, UK)
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Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Apr 2003
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As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaah
Barakallaahu feek akhi for the translation and clarification.
A brother has asked me whether I knew if the same/similar applies to the man who wishes to speak with (or to have an engagement with) more than one lady at a time.
I told him that I don't know as the man is allowed to marry more than one woman and of course he doesn't need a mahram etc.
Do you have any additional information with regards to the situation from the man's perspective?
Barakallaahu feek
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaah
Lougain
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09-01-2007 @ 10:58 AM
