SalafiTalk.Net » Affairs of Fiqh
» Is Playing Children's Games With Dice Halaal or Haraam?
Search ===>

Part 1Part 2Part 3Part 4Part 5Part 6Part 7Part 8Part 9 • Part 10 • Part 11 • Part 12

   Reply to this Discussion Start new discussion << previous || next >> 
Posted By Topic: Is Playing Children's Games With Dice Halaal or Haraam?

book mark this topic Printer-friendly Version  send this discussion to a friend  new posts last

28-01-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 20
Joined: Oct 2002
As Salaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

Can someone please post some information and its source on  whether playing with a die or dice as part of a child's game is halaal or haraam. An example is the game "Trouble".

JazakumuAllaahu Khairan.

This message was edited by umm.ali on 1-28-03 @ 6:26 PM

28-01-2003 @ 12:00 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 265
Joined: Sep 2002
Aboo Moosaa Asha'ree radiyallaahu anhu reported that The Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam said:

"He who plays with dice (or backgammon) disobeys Allaah and His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam)"

Collected by Imaams Ahmad, Aboo Daawood, Ibn Maajah and Maalik in his Muwatta. It has an isnaad that is munqati'*, but because of some other supporting narrations from Aboo Moosaa it is strengthen to the level of hasan, inshaa Allaah.

Buraidah (radiyallaahu anhu) reported Rasoolullaah sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam as saying:

"If anyone plays with dice, it is as though he sinks his hand in the flesh of swine and its blood".

Collected Imaams Ahmad, Muslim and Aboo Daawood and it is saheeh.

It is clear from these narrations that playing with them whether gambling or not, is not permissible.

And Allaah knows best!

*In general, is a hadeeth whose link in the chain anywhere is missing, whether it is in the begining, end or middle. But some of the latter day Ulamaa of hadeeth say it is a narration whose link anywhere before the taabi'ee is missing.

كن مستفيدا أو مفيدا
أو اسكت بحلم

14-01-2010 @ 11:06 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 2008

08-11-2010 @ 12:53 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 204
Joined: Sep 2008
As-Salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa baarakaatuh

Is it possible for one of the students of knowledge who have some insight into what the mashaykh of past & present times have said regarding these ahadeeth?

It would be beneficial to know the position of our mashaykh in relation to the use of dice in other than gambling or wasting time.   Rather in relation to children participating in numeracy activities in an academic realm.

BaarakAllaahu feekum

When a man knows his ownself, speech of the people is of no benefit to him!

06-01-2011 @ 10:08 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
wa 'alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.

In the Name of Allaah, the Most Merciful...

Briefly, the hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim quoted above is about Nard-sheer, an ancient Persian game made famous by pre-Islaamic Indian kings.  It is very similar to backgammon i've heard.  there are two dice involved, and it is a game of chance where no skill or strategy is employed.

Chess ("shatranj" in Arabic), a skill-based game won by strategy was developed later and became famous in India, and was made to replace the chance game of nard-sheer.

Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee gave the issue some very beautiful insight, making distinctions between games of chance (taking the ruling of nard-sheer) and games of skill.  Games of skill like chess remain permissible according to him, so long as no evils are associated with them, like wasting long amounts of time, neglecting duties like salaah, etc.  That is since the game of nard-sheer does not develop any skills, unlike chess and other games of skill that build strategy and planning skills.

This is mentioned in al-Mughnee by Ibn Qudaamah with a detailed and critical look at ash-Shaafi'ee's position, concluding with the position of 'Alee ib Abee Taalib and the three other math-habs - that chess takes the same ruling as nard-sheer, however I was actually convinced of the correctness of ash-Shaafi'ees argument after reading this passage which was meant to refute his argument!

This is what seems to be more correct and in line with the goals of the Sharee'ah -

1) Games that produce benefit, like thinking skills, strategies, langauge development, or physical abilities, are permissible, or possibly recommended in some situations, depending on the need of the person and the level of benefit gained from the game.

2) Games that do not build any skills or encourage any thinking or planning are falsehood, and they take the ruling of nard-sheer, referred to in the hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim.

Note that the issue of dice is not the determining factor in this issue.  Dice are an element of chance, yet in a game like Monopoly, children use dice to initiate their turn, and then make a number of decisions that will affect the success of their business ventures mainly in property management, trading, bargaining, buying, and selling, etc.  Monopoly, when freed of images and mock ribaa dealings, can be considered from the 1st category above, due to the skills that can be learned from it.

However, games that rely solely on the roll of the dice, or the spin of the spinner, or the draw of a card, meaning: a game of just chance, and allow no chance for strategy or development of skills, like "Chutes and Ladders" or the likes, fall into the second category.

Some people have replaced dice with spinners in games of chance, thinking to be avoiding the prohibition.  It is more important to identify the game as a game of chance or a game of skill, instead of a game that uses dice or not.

and Allaah knows best.

I hope these words have helped.

ibn John

‎‎‎‎‎‎ ‎‎‎‎‎ ‎‎‎‎‎‎
‎‎‎‎ ‎‎ ‎‎ ‎‎‎ ‎‎‎ ‎‎‎

07-01-2011 @ 8:10 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2009
As salamu alaykum

This opinion is quite ghareeb... Why is it that the majority of the scholars have either declared chess haraam or at least makrooh, because that is what I know...

How disgusting is poverty after sufficiency, and even more disgusting is misguidance after guidance - Qisasul Anbiya by ibnKathir

07-02-2011 @ 12:55 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
wa alaykumus-salaamu wa rahmatullaah

The majority seem to rely heavily on qiyaas with nard (saying "chess is like backgammon/nard so it takes the same ruling) and the statement of 'Alee, "What are these statues you are sitting over (for a long time)?"  Some of them may have relied upon weak hadeeths about chess.

Shaykh Ferkous (may Allaah bless him) discussed this issue, with a discussion similar to the one above, with similar conclusions, reminding us that issues of dunyaa are permissible until a text comes to prohibit them or a clear and correct qiyaas can be made with something haraam:

ibn John

‎‎‎‎‎‎ ‎‎‎‎‎ ‎‎‎‎‎‎
‎‎‎‎ ‎‎ ‎‎ ‎‎‎ ‎‎‎ ‎‎‎
‎‎‎‎‎‎‎ ‎

TawhidFirst | Aqidah | AboveTheThrone | Asharis
Madkhalis | Takfiris | Maturidis | Dajjaal
Islam Against Extremism | Manhaj
Ibn Taymiyyah | Bidah

main page | contact us
Copyright © 2001 - SalafiTalk.Net
Madinah Dates Gold Silver Investments