in fact, the response to your question is in the following book, which is a compilation of fatawaa by our shaykh al 'Outheymin (rahimahou llah).
« Liqaa-ou al babi al maftouh » volume 3, page 52, question n° 1170
indeed, the fiqh rule you've mentionned is used by the shaykh to prove his argument, and he also uses something that used to do the Sahaba (radi Allahou 'anhoum)( he uses the term: "kaanou ya'koulouna, which indicates a recuring action)to prove his view.
Check on his official site, maybe you will be able to hear it recorded.
(ÇáÍÞ ãä ÑÈß"(Âá ÚãÑÇä"
Oummou Assia Amina Le Joncour al-firanssiyyah as-salafiyyah.
just for clarification.
Does this fatwa mean that medicine in gelcaps, marshmellows, jello, etc. are permissable to eat due to the transformation?
Does this apply to gelatin that originated from a pig?
wa salaamu alaikum,
aboo ibraheem
I posed a question on gelatin to Abu Uwais at the Happiness is in As Salafiyyah Vol. 2 event in Hagerstown, Maryland on the morning of Sunday, April 11th, 2004 CE. And according to his response, which I can not recall word for word, but his response surrounded the issue of the pork ingredient being in it's original form, then the ingredient being used with other ingredients and/or chemicals and changing it's form to no longer make it pork such as in gelatin. And it was some more to it. I don't know if that part was taped, because it was an question and answer section that was not originally scheduled, Alhamdulillah. I will check at the masjid with the brother who handles all the audio, InShaAllaah. If anyone else who was present from the members of salafitalk.net can contribute to this, please do so, InShaAllaah. Barak Allaahu Feekum. But from my understanding the gelatin is okay, wa Allaahu Alam. But as far as gelatin coming from a pig, Allaahu Alam.
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmahtullahi wa barakatu
Abu Musa Musa Ibn Wendell Ball Al Amriki
Baltimore, Maryland, USA
'Come and Sit With Us So That We Can Have Eaaman For An Hour' (Page 82 - Causes Behind the Increase and Decrease of Eemaan
This message was edited by musa.ibn.wendell on 4-19-04 @ 8:57 AM
Akhee, I had some sheets on this subject but I don't know where they are. I found this info that supports some of the views on the paper I had, afwaan.
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The Oxford dictionary of science
Gelatin
?A colourless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling? (page 290)
According to the Literalist School: Ibn Hazm, the exponent of the Literalist school wrote in his manual (Al Muhalla) volume 1, page 166, problem no. 132: ?If the excretion of the animal is burnt down or changed and becomes ashes or dust, all that becomes pure and can be used for tayammum (earth purification) . The proof of that is the fact that rules are in accordance with what Allah Most High, has ruled regarding the objects in what the object is named. If the name of the object is changed or dropped, the previous rule is dropped as well. It is something from that which Allah has named?. As such, excretion is different from dust, as it is different from ashes. The same thing with wine which is different from vinegar and human being is different from the blood from which he is created. The dead thing is different from dust or ashes.
In problem 136, page 178, he goes on to say: ?If the quality of the substance of naturally impure object changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule.
The following was posted on the Yahoo email group: West London Da'wah, which may be what was being referred to earlier in this thread:
quote:
Bismillahi wa salaatu wa salaamu 'alaa rasulillah,
(Taken entirely from a dars given by Sh. Muhammad Bazmool, translated by Moosa Richardson and a fatwa given by Sh. al-Albaani)
Istihala is when something becomes pure. It was najis (impure) but it is now taahir (pure). A good example would be maitah (animal carcass): it is najis, but should it be burned and become ashes, or decompose and become earth, then it is taahir, it is no longer najis. This can happen with dung or feces or whatever. Whenever something changes from one property to another, then the ruling likewise changes.
Example: Let us say that someone uses the fat of a dead animal to make soap. That fat is najis, but the chemical change that it was put through makes it taahir.
Ibn Hazm put it concisely when he said,
"Ruling upon an object is upon what it is named (what it is), if the name (what it is) changes then so does the ruling."
He also mentioned in his book of fiqh, Al-Muhalla: "If the quality of the substance of naturally impure objects changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule."
Meaning that if the natural composition of a substance changes to another substance of a different composition, so much so that you can no longer call the new substance by the name of what it was-- ruling upon that substance changes too.
Proof/Example 1:
The companions (radyallahu anhum) used to eat a cheese that came from the land of the disbelievers. In that cheese was a part of the calf which was slaughtered by the disbelievers in a way that is not in accordance with Islaam. The companions knew this, but they also knew that the prohibition was upon the calf, what is directly from the calf, and what could be properly called part of the calf; the ruling is not upon that which you cannot identify as part of the calf nor is it called any longer such-and-such part of the calf. This is called istihala.
Proof/Example 2:
Another proof from the Sunnah: The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) forbade making vinegar out of wine, but he said that if you should come across vinegar that has been made from wine then it is halaal.
Why?
The ruling is upon what the object is, and not what it was. Wine is haraam; vinegar is not, and before the wine became an intoxicant, it was halaal. Why? Because it was fruit before that.
Proof/Example 3:
Allah says in the Qur'an:
"And surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle we give you to drink of what is in their bellies from between the feces and blood, pure milk, wholesome to those who drink it." (16:66)
Allah is putting forth an example for us of how something pure can come from something impure.
And we can also use as proof something that we've already gone over. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said that when the hide of maitah (the carrion) is tanned, then it is taahir. He (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) gave us a method to purify something which was first impure.
Let us examine things we are familiar with: mono and diglycerides, whey, gluten, emulsifiers, gelatin, and whatever else is on the international haraam list. These by-products sometimes come from animals, pigs even, in which case the ruling on the initial substances is that they are haraam. But the initial substances (e.g. fat, marrow, cartilage, etc.) are put through chemical change so that you no longer can even call it "pig fat" or "animal bone" or "skin" or "cartilage", etc. because it is no longer that, hence it is taahir, it is halaal.
What is gelatin? As Oxford dictionary of science defines: "A colorless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling." (page 290)
Is this a chemical change or is this not a chemical change? Is it protein any longer? No, it is not.
You are in disbelief so you ask, "But how can it be halaal when it came from something haraam?"
Because of the proofs mentioned above, the ruling is not based upon what it was, the ruling is based upon what it is. A Hanafi scholar, Ibn Abedin gave the example: "the swine which drowns in a salt lake and decomposes and becomes salt itself, is now halaal."
And other Hanafi scholars go on to say: "salt is different from meat and bones. If they become salt, they are salt."
To take the salt example further: salt consists of sodium chloride (NaCl) when together they are the halaal food known as salt, when separated they make up two poisonous substances which are then haraam for consumption.
The ahnaaf (Hanafis) also use as an example the human semen, saying that it is najis, then when it inseminates the egg and becomes a blood clot it is still najis, but when it becomes flesh it is no longer najis. And the ahnaaf are not the only ones who take this position.
The examples are numerous and they extend beyond food: Yesterday a man was kaafir and going towards Hell, today he is Muslim, so what is the ruling upon him? It is based upon what he is today.
We must be careful when we call things haraam because it is a form of thulm (oppression). Scholars have said that it is worse that you make something halaal to haraam rather than making something haraam to halaal. This deen Allah has made yusr (easy) let us not make it 'usr (hard). Wallahu 'Alim.
Rasheed Abdullaah
Pray this helps.
Wa salaam
Subhaanakallaah humma wa bi Hamdika Ashadu allaa ilaha illa ant, astaghfiruka wa atooba ilayk
This message was edited by Hamza-L-F on 8-13-04 @ 8:11 PM
This message was edited by abu.yusuf.iesaa on 8-12-04 @ 1:12 PM
quote:
But I have one question about it. It became not entirely clear for me which part was from Shaych Mohammad Baazmool (hafidahullah) and which part was the fatwa from Shaych al-Albaanee (rahimahullah)... maybe you could clarify that for me... Wa Jazaak Allaahu khaira !
Akhi I wouldn't know, I've simply done a C&P.
Perhaps our brother Moosa Richardson hafithahullaah, the translator, may be able to shed light upon your question.
Wa barakallaahu feek
Subhaanakallaah humma wa bi Hamdika Ashadu allaa ilaha illa ant, astaghfiruka wa atooba ilayk
Those classes were indeed highly beneficial, may Allaah reward the shaykh generously.
Moosaa ibn John Richardson
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quote:
And I don't remember Shaykh Muhammad Baazmool quoting from the Oxford dictionary!
Haha, yes, that did seem a little out of place. I myself just did a straight copy and paste.
Further to this, I wanted to present the actual processing of Gelatine as delineated by the GME (Gelatine Manufacturers of Europe). It makes for an interesting read especially when one keeps in mind the principles forwarded by the Shaykh:
"Ruling upon an object is upon what it is named (what it is), if the name (what it is) changes then so does the ruling."
As ibn Hazm mentioned in his book of fiqh, Al-Muhalla: "If the quality of the substance of naturally impure objects changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule."
quote:
GME - GELATINE MANUFACTURERS OF EUROPE
Gelatine is produced in highly technological industrial installations in a complex procedure involving several stages. The input material is the connective tissue of pigs, cattle, poultry or fish. The collagen protein is removed from the pig, calf or cattle skin as well as bones and is processed to form gelatine. Gelatine the final product is a pure source of protein.
1. Pretreatment
First of all, the fat and minerals are removed from the raw materials. Afterwards two different pre-treatment methods are used, depending on the raw material and on the final application of the gelatine.
Alkaline Procedure:
The connective tissue of cattle is highly interconnected and is therefore pre-treated with lime in a process lasting several weeks. This brings about a gentle change to the collagen structure. After this treatment, the collagen is soluble in warm water and can thus be separated from the rest of the raw material.
Acid Procedure:
The collagen connective tissue from pigskin is not so heavily interconnected. Here, a one-day acid treatment with subsequent neutralisation and the intensive rinsing out of the salts is sufficient to extract the collagen.
2. Extraction
The pre-treated raw materials are now treated with hot drinking water and extracted in several stages. The temperature of the hot water is a parameter for the jelly strength: the lower the temperature of the water, the higher the jelly strength (Bloom value) of the extracted gelatine.
3. Cleaning
The extracted solutions are freed of traces of fat and fine fibres in high-performance separators. Even the finest impurities are removed by filtration, in a similar way to the beverages industry. In a last purification stage the gelatine is freed of calcium, sodium, residual acid and other salts.
4. Thickening
The gelatine solution is now concentrated in vacuum evaporators and thickened to form a honey-like solution.
5. Drying
The highly concentrated gelatine solutions are sterilised, cooled, set and dried under strict hygienic conditions. In this process, ?gel noodles? are formed that are ground into grains.
The quality and purity of the gelatine is ensured by detailed quality control.
All of these steps are indispensable for gelatine manufacture and have been used for decades to manufacture high-quality gelatine.
[Title, underlining and bold mine]
Allaahu 'alam
Wa salaam
Subhaanakallaah humma wa bi Hamdika Ashadu allaa ilaha illa ant, astaghfiruka wa atooba ilayk
This is coming verrry late, but I just came across this and I have to post a response. This is really quite surprising and a bit embarassing, but akhunaa Moosa is correct, he never did mention Oxford Dictionary's definition of gelatin, plus some other points in the C & P post by Hamza. I put together that post from two different sources: one was Moosa Richardson's translation of Shaikh Bazmool's explanation of Darur al-Bahiyyah which was part of a set of tapes and the other source being a post on the issue of gelatin that I was forwarded in 2001. The e-mail forwarded to me mentioned that Shaikh al-Albani shared the opnion of the Ahnaaf as well as the Dhaahirees.
I can't even remember now when I typed up the post that was posted by Hamza and where I sent it, but I do know that I wasn't even a member of salafitalk.net at that time. I should have made a better distinction as to what came from the dars on Darur al-Bahiyyah and what came from the e-mail I was sent. I can also remember trying to put it together in a way that would be cohesive to the reader so as to not jump from one thing to the other. Please forgive me if I mislead anyone. Wallahu Musta'aan.
Abu Shereen Rasheed Abullah
Al-Istihaalaýmeans to change from the state that it was originally to another state where it becomes something else. The essence of it now is no longer the essence of what it was before.
With maitah, if after a while it decomposes and becomes part of the earth, it is no longer najasah. It no longer holds the ruling of maitah because it is no longer that, in fact you may not even be able to say what it was.
This can happen with dung, or feces, etc. Whenever something changes from one property to another, then the ruling likewise changes and the examples are numerous
The ruling applies upon what something is not what it was.
Istihaala is from the mutahiraat (purifying). It could have been impure at first but it becomes pure.
For instance: soap- or any other product- if they used maitah but they put it through a process where the end result is different from what was started with.
Proof from Sahabah
Some of the sahabah used to eat the cheese of the disbelievers. The cheese was made from a part of the calf's chest, the calf that was slaughtered by the kuffaar. They knew that this was in the cheese, but they knew also that it went through istihaala.
Gelatin: comes from bone of pig or animal but no longer called bone, rather it is called gelatin, hence it is taahir and halaal. How when it used to be najis and haraam? It has gone through istihaala and what it is now is not what it was before
Proof from The Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam)
The Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) forbade Muslims from making khamr into vinegar, but if we should come across vinegar that's made from alcohol without our doing, then that vinegar is halaal.
End of notes on this topic
TextText
quote:
Gelatin: comes from bone of pig or animal but no longer called bone, rather it is called gelatin, hence it is taahir and halaal. How when it used to be najis and haraam? It has gone through istihaalaýwhat it is now is not what it was before...
I really need someone who has the tapes to confirm this. I don't remember this conclusion being made. I remember that the shaykh concluded that it is possible that gelatin may have undergone istihaalah, however he did not say that it actually had. This is what I remember.
Furthermore:
quote:
...if they used maitah or blood but they put it through a process where the end result is different from what was started with, then it is pureýand pig in soap is no problem because pig is not najis...
He may have said that pig is not najas, but it was a view he later retracted in one of his regular classes in Makkah when a student quoted a citation of ijmaa' (concensus) that the pig is considered najas.
But again I wish these notes could be confirmed by someone listening to the actual lecture (which I don't have).
Moosaa ibn John Richardson
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Keep in mind that the scholars when talking about Istihalah were talking about a complete transformation and not a partial one, this is clear from the examples they gave regarding this issue, a pig transforming into salt and feces transforming into soil and so on.
So what is gelatin? Gelatin is a protein substance derived from collagen, a natural protein present in the tendons, ligaments, and tissues of mammals. It is produced by boiling the connective tissues, bones and skins of animals, usually cows and pigs. Nowadays a seven step procedure is used to manufacture gelatin. Calfskin trimmings are soaked in lime water for several weeks to remove the hair. Later they are acidified and cooked. Pigskin and bone material are treated with weak acids while being washed. Several weeks are required to prepare the bones for cooking but the skins are ready within a few hours. Next, the material is cooked in large vats at about 120F for several hours. The broth is drawn off, more water is added, and the material is further cooked at greater heat. This is repeated five or six times. The broths are filtered, concentrated in a vacuum, then dried to a jelly on a rubber belt passing through a refrigerated area. The resulting sheets of jelly are dried in hot air, and the final gelatin is ground to the powder we are familiar with at the market. In the United States, food gelatin comes almost exclusively from pigs and cows. The three sources of gelatin are pigskins, calfskins, and ossein (dried cattle bones).
Gelatin can be derived from a number of sources, one should not be able to differentiate between them if the chemical change is one that is complete. Investigators, scientists and chemists who have studied the chemical composition of gelatins and the collagens from which they are derived have found that even after all this prolonged processing, pig gelatin can be differentiated from beef gelatin! The arrangement of the amino acids in the gelatin is very similar to that of the parent collagen. In other words, the animal source of the gelatin can be identified by its amino acid composition. When pig skin gelatin is eaten, a set of amino acids peculiar to pig is eaten. A pig is not a cow; their skins are distinct, the collagens in the skins are different, the processed gelatins are different. In the Journal of Health and Healing, it states: ýa pig is a pig right down to the single molecule of collagen. A pig is a pig, clear down to its enzymes.ý (Vol. 12, No. 1, page 30-2)
The Fiqh Councils of Makkah and Jeddah have issued religious decrees that state that it is prohibited to use gelatin that is derived from unlawful sources.
Since there is a difference of opinion in this issue, it is best to avoid gelatin derived from unlawful sources altogether. Alhamdulilah there are many alternatives that one can turn to here in the West. The Prophet, may Allah praise him, said: ýLeave that which you are doubtful in for that which you are not.ý Imam as-Sindi said: ýThe meaning here is if someone is unsure as to whether something is Haram or Halal that one should avoid it altogether and take that which is clearly Halal.ý
Q: Is gelatin unlawful?
A: If gelatin is made from an unlawful substance, such as pig's meat, bones, skin, or the like, it is unlawful. Allah (may He be Exalted) says:Surah Al-Ma'idah, 5: 3 He has forbidden you only the Maitah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine. Religious scholars unanimously agreed that lard (pig's fat) falls under this prohibition. However, if the gelatin is free from any unlawful substance, there is no harm in using it.
May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!
Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta'
`Abdul-`Aziz ibn `Abdullah ibn Baz
`Abdul-Razzaq `Afify
`Abdullah ibn Ghudayyan
`Abdullah ibn Qa`ud
http://www.alifta.com/Fatawa/FatawaChapters.aspx?View=Page&PageID=7724&PageNo=1&BookID=7
quote:
Some of the sahabah used to eat the cheese of the disbelievers. The cheese was made from a part of the calfýs chest, the calf that was slaughtered by the kuffaar. They knew that this was in the cheese, but they knew also that it went through istihaala.
Can you kindly provide me the source for this narration from Sahaaba (Radhiyallahu anhum ajma'een)?
Barakallahu lakum,
Abu Maslamah As Sayalaani
quote:
The issue of Istihalah is one that is used by those who legalize gelatin.
Who are "those who legalize gelatin" exactly? I mean... from the people of knowledge?
Moosaa ibn John Richardson
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Moosaa
ibn John
Richardson
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quote:
Let us examine things we are familiar with: mono and diglycerides, whey, gluten, emulsifiers, gelatin, and whatever else is on the international haraam list. These by-products sometimes come from animals, pigs even, in which case the ruling on the initial substances is that they are haraam. But the initial substances (e.g. fat, marrow, cartilage, etc.) are put through chemical change so that you no longer can even call it "pig fat" or "animal bone" or "skin" or "cartilage", etc. because it is no longer that, hence it is taahir, it is halaal.
What is gelatin? As Oxford dictionary of science defines: "A colorless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling." (page 290)
Is this a chemical change or is this not a chemical change? Is it protein any longer? No, it is not.
I know for a fact that protein derived from whey in products such as Whey Protein Shakes stays as protein - that's the whole point of protein shakes.
Moreover,scientifically speaking, wouldn't the above example be a physical change rather than a chemical one? Are there reactions taking place which alter the substance to a point where it cannot be brought back or is the gelatin simply changing state by dissolving?
How disgusting is poverty after sufficiency, and even more disgusting is misguidance after guidance - Qisasul Anbiya by ibnKathir
Shaykh Muhammad 'Umar Baazmool did indeed say explicitly that the substance called gelatin has undergone istihaalah and is thus considered halaal and pure.
having difficulty attaching the audio file here...
Moosaa
ibn John
Richardson
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