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Posted By Topic: Is this possible? Can someone pray a 3-unit prayer (3 rak'ahs) with 4 sittings for tashah-hud?

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Moosaa
05-09-2010 @ 4:24 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Tashah-hud: Sitting and reciting "At-tahiyyaatu lillaah..."

A man prayed a 3-unit prayer (3 rak'ahs) and sat for 4 tashah-huds, and his prayer was valid, without any need for sujood as-sahw (prostrations of forgetfulness)...

How is that possible?

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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wasim.ahmed
05-09-2010 @ 6:58 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abu 'Abdil 'Azeez Waseem ibn Abdirraheem Al Peshimaam (Bangalore,India / Al Qaseem , K.S.A)
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Since this is posted in the New Muslims Forum , is it only for our brother & sisters who have accepted Islaam recently ?

abd.al-kareem
05-09-2010 @ 10:54 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Aboo Ibraheem Abd al_Kareem ibn Fredric (chicago, il usa)
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This would be possible if the following is correct.

The Man entered upon the salaatul Jama'ah for salaatul Maghrib while the Imam
was already sitting for the 1st tashah-hud of the salaat. The next rakah for
the Imam will be the 3rd rakah of salaatul Maghrib, thus this will be the 2nd
Tasha-hud for the Man and only his first rakah.

When the Imam salaams out that will be when the Man rises to perfome only his
2nd rakah of salaatul maghrib which will lead to the tashah-hud which will be
his 3rd.

Then the man will rise for his 3rd and final rak'ah of salaatul maghrib he
would make his forth and final tasha-hud.

4 tasha-hud with 3 rak'ah of salatul maghrib due to entering upon the jama'ah
for maghrib while sitting for the 1st tasha-hud.

And Allaah knows best.



Husayn_El_Sharif
05-10-2010 @ 2:53 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Aboo Haaroon Husayn Ahmad ibn Jamal (West Palm Beach, FL USA)
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Hmm.... this is a challenging question.

I'm not sure. Maybe the man is praying the Eclipse Prayer or the Fear Prayer?



dksadiq
05-10-2010 @ 5:58 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Damilola Sadiq ibn Owodunni (Lagos, Nigeria || Eastern Province, KSA)
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Yes, if he caught the prayer in the 2nd rak'ah but after the ruku' then the tashah-hud's will be:
1st - for the rak'ah he joined the jamaa'ah in (which doesn't count for him)
2nd - for the last rak'ah of the jamaa'ah (which is his first rak'ah)
3rd and 4th - for the man's 2nd & 3rd rak'ah's of his Maghrib prayer.

And this is not possible - i.e. 4 tashah-hud's - in any other prayer except if the person made a mistake, correct?

mu'nis
05-10-2010 @ 3:47 PM    Notify Admin about this post
unspecified unspecified (Canada)
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It is possible if:

1) He joins on the 1st tashahhud of the jamaah
2) the imaam forgets and makes a 2nd tashahhud on his third rak'ah (person's 1st Rak'ah)
3) Imaam completes the salaah with 3rd tashahhud and makes taslim, after which the person may get up and continue with his salaah, while imaam makes sujood us sawh. If i am correct the person does not need to follow the imaam after the taslim
4) The person completes his salaah by making 4th tashahhud in his last (3rd) rak'ah.

Allahu 'Alam.

------
Say: "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a Straight Path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [i.e. the true Islımic Monotheism - to believe in One God (Allıh i.e. to worship none but Allıh, Alone)] and he was not of polytheis

yasin3683
05-11-2010 @ 12:23 AM    Notify Admin about this post
ibn Ahmad Maher ibn Ahmad (U.S.A.)
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Bismillaah Al-Hamdulillaah wa salatu wa salaamu 'ala rasulullaah
Amma ba'd

As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa baarakatu, Moosa,

Can this scenario also be correct [or is the late arriver on his own as soon as the imam makes taslim]?

If - for example - on a rainy evening, a man arrived late and join the Jama'ah (congregation) in the tashahud of the second rak'ah of Maghrib, then rose with the Jama'ah and prayed his first rak'ah while the Jama'ah prayed the third (and last) rak'ah of Maghrib, sitting with them during that tashahud as well. [Tashahud count, so far: 2]

After the imam made taslim, he ordered for the iqaamah for 'Isha` (combining the prayers due to rain), and this later arriver prayed his second rak'ah of Maghrib while the Jama'ah prayed their first rak'ah of 'Isha`. And this late arriver prayed his third rak'ah of Maghrib while the Jama'ah prayed their second rak'ah of 'Ishah, sitting with them in that tashahud. [Tashahud count, so far: 3]

Since the imam did not make taslim, the late arriver did not make taslim either, and stayed in this position until the imam reached the tashahud of the fourth rak'ah of 'Isha. Then this later arriver made taslim with the imam, finishing his Maghrib prayer while the Jama'ah finished their 'Ishah prayer. [Final Tashahud count: 4]

Thus he only prayed three raka'h, but sat with the Jama'ah for all four tashahuds - two tashahuds of Maghrib (second and third rak'ah) and two tashahuds (second and fourth rak'ah) of 'Ishah.

And Allaah knows best.


Subhanak Allaahuma wa bihamdika ash-hadu anlaa illaaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa atubu ilayk  

If I said anything correct, then it is from Allaah (subhanahu wa taa'ala), and if I erred, then that is from me and shaytan.

Moosaa
05-12-2010 @ 11:26 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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abd.al-kareem
dksadiq

may Allaah bless you for your correct responses.

yasin
mu'nis
husayn

may Allaah bless you for your responses.

Yasin I didn't really understand the joining two congregrations in one salaat idea.

at least we got everybody thinking...!

and for the record abd.al-kareem's answer did not show up until many others had posted.  i think if they had seen the easy answer he gave, they would have recognized it as the correct answer.

also - dksadiq's answer is actually more comprehensive as it includes all possible situations for the answer.

May Allaah bless you all.

additional question for benefit - when we make rak'ahs up when late... if we have prayed one rak'ah with the imaam (his third), why do we consider the two we make up to be #2 and #3 and not #1 and #2?

Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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dksadiq
05-13-2010 @ 12:43 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Damilola Sadiq ibn Owodunni (Lagos, Nigeria || Eastern Province, KSA)
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Posts: 338
Joined: Jul 2007
          
BaarakAllaahu feek, brother Moosaa. JazaakAllaahu khayraa.

quote:
additional question for benefit - when we make rak'ahs up when late... if we have prayed one rak'ah with the imaam (his third), why do we consider the two we make up to be #2 and #3 and not #1 and #2?


Because of this hadeeth?:
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[ 866 ] حدثنا آدم قال حدثنا بن أبي ذئب قال الزهري عن سعيد وأبي سلمة عن أبي هريرة رضى الله تعالى عنه عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وحدثنا أبو اليمان قال أخبرنا شعيب عن الزهري قال أخبرني أبو سلمة بن عبد الرحمن أن أبا هريرة قال سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول إذا أقيمت الصلاة فلا تأتوها تسعون وأتوها تمشون عليكم السكينة فما أدركتم فصلوا وما فاتكم فأتموا

Meaning:
[After the chain of narration] ... Aboo Hurairah may Allah be pleased with him narrated:

I heard the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم say: When the prayer has been established (i.e. started), then do not come to it running but come it walking, upon you as-sakeenah. Then whatever you catch,pray; and what ever you miss, then complete it.
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I think that last phrase (فأتموا) in the hadeeth would be central in answering the question. i.e. - the person should bring what is left from the prayer not the part that he missed with the imaam.

By the way, is there another valid opinion regarding making up the rak'ah's one misses?

Moosaa
05-19-2010 @ 4:49 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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dksadiq - may Allaah bless you:

yes you have mentioned an imporant hadeeth on the topic, yet for someone seeking clarity, he may not know how to reply to the doubt: "'Complete it' could mean: by praying the first rak'ah after finishing the 2nd and 3rd."  So this hadeeth needs understood more clearly right?

there is a clear rational argument that aids the proper understanding of the hadeeth, which I will leave to the members (new Muslims or otherwise) to seek out before posting it in shaa' Allaah.

this came to my PM box:
quote:
the one who joins the ranks (Fajr, Maghrib or Ishaa) and has missed one or two of the audible rak'atain. Does this individual, after the imaam makes the tasleem, get up and Recite out loud the any audibl rak'ah he missed?


the base ruling is YES, he makes up the loud rak'ah loudly, however, he may not raise his voice if there is someone praying next to him making up the prayer as well, which is often the case.  So, if he is the only one making up the rak'ah(s), and his recitaion does not disturb anyone, then he makes up the loud rak'ahs loudly.  For example, he makes up the missed rak'ah of Fajr as it was legislated, loudly, wih a recitation of something after al-Faatihah.  And Allaah knows best.



Moosaa ibn John Richardson

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dksadiq
11-13-2010 @ 8:42 PM    Notify Admin about this post
Damilola Sadiq ibn Owodunni (Lagos, Nigeria || Eastern Province, KSA)
Member
Posts: 338
Joined: Jul 2007
          
quote:
additional question for benefit - when we make rak'ahs up when late... if we have prayed one rak'ah with the imaam (his third), why do we consider the two we make up to be #2 and #3 and not #1 and #2?
SubhaanAllaah, a possible answer to your question just came to me when discussing this issue with a brother:
Just as (it seems) you hinted above, we make up the prayer in the same order as it was legislated, which is (in the case of Maghrib) raka'h #1, then #2, then #3, not any other order.

Secondly, in your post above:
quote:
the one who joins the ranks (Fajr, Maghrib or Ishaa)and has missed one or two of the audible rak'atain. Does this individual, after the imaam makes the tasleem, get up and Recite out loud the any audibl rak'ah he missed?
quote:
the base ruling is YES, he makes up the loud rak'ah loudly,
but if for example we prayed 'Ishaa' and missed one loud raka'ah, then to complete our prayer in the correct sequence, our last raka'ah would be our 4th which normally should be silent. But do you imply from your answer that in this case, this last raka'ah would be loud?

jazaakAllaahu khayraa.

Moosaa
12-03-2010 @ 8:08 AM    Notify Admin about this post
Abul-'Abbaas Moosaa ibn John Richardson (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia)
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Posts: 1280
Joined: Sep 2002
          
quote:
we prayed 'Ishaa' and missed one loud raka'ah

meaning you missed the first rakah and you prayed 3 with the imaam (unless he was traveling), so you make up your fourth rakah, which is silent.  and Allaah knows best.

Baarak Allaahu feek.

Moosaa
ibn John
Richardson


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